Slammin da R yo!

[ActiveAero]

Da chicks be dissin da ride so I thought "damn I better drop dis bitch with sum hydros". Dey be all out of da pimp slam kits so I wentz with dees instead..

http://www.randdmotorsports.com/images/budclubdamper.bmp

Buddy Club Dampeners (yeah laugh at the name). Same setup used on the champion ECHC ITR so they must be decent. Rates are 660lb front 440lb rear, but I will be looking into some custom rates for the rear to gain some more rotation.

Should be fun and I can transfer the R's stock suspension to the hatch.

[insert_car]

Should be fun and I can transfer the R's stock suspension to the hatch.

:shock: sweet!

i can't see the pics bro. anyways, should be awesome

[maxpsi]

I didn't know they made anything other than body kits. Good deal.

[AadosX]

Buddy Club makes good shit. Do you know what the spring rates are in kg/mm? I'm too lazy to convert.

[Frosty_DUB]

I didn't know they made anything other than body kits. Good deal.

hahah. are you serious. :lol:

[maxpsi]

I didn't know they made anything other than body kits. Good deal.

hahah. are you serious. :lol:

Yeah. :? Enlighten me on the ricer stuff. I'm not in teh loop. :wink:

[xamraci]

Buddy club is SUPER JDM stuff...I have mostly seen buddy club suspension on Integras though. I dont tend to look into stuff that wont work for the accord 8) . Nice Choice though...I am lookin at either APEX-i or Tein...after I get boosted

[AadosX]

They also make good seats and wheels.

[ActiveAero]

Buddy Club makes good shit. Do you know what the spring rates are in kg/mm? I'm too lazy to convert.

12kg front, 8kg rear. I will probably go to a slightly rear bais spring (13-14kg or so).

[AadosX]

Hell yes, that's what it's all about. Everyone says that my car is stiff, I say psh, no it's not. I only have 8/6, and I only got it because it was cheap at the time... I can't wait for 12/10... some day.

BTW, have I ever met you? I think I know most of the names on the board and know them in person etc...

[ActiveAero]

No you've never met me before that I know of. I don't live in AU anymore, but visit from time to time.

I'm not really worried about the stiffness either, well for now at least. When I decide to stiffen up the rear some more it could make it a bit touchy on the street. Stiffness doesn't always directly relate to better handling (well except in a perfect world). Too stiff and your car will suck on anything but glass smooth roads.

I'm thinking about going stiffer in the rear because the factory bias is 50/50 (well the rears are progessive, but 50/50 under load) and I want the car to rotate more on corner entry.

Stuff supposedly gets weird though. With stiffer rates in the front it would seem that it would make the car want to understeer more, but it could prevent load from transferring enough to actually improve front grip and promote even more rotation in some situations. The car being front heavy as well the seemingly lower spring rates in the rear will seem much stiffer (comparitively that is) There is all kinds of complicated crap that can effect it. I'll of course drive and auto-x the current setup and see how I like it.

[Frosty_DUB]

Got pics from the install?

[CPMaverick]

Compliance is good. If you want it twitchier, install a stiffer rear bar. Roll stiffness is what you're looking for anyway. Hell make the bar adjustable then you can have all kinds of fun without new parts

[maxpsi]

I think a combination of stiff coilovers and thick sway bars would work best. You don't want to put too much stress on the subframe like this guy..... http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=831097.

[xamraci]

WOW^^^thats totally un-cool, I would be calling some Mo-Fos about that

[AadosX]

No you've never met me before that I know of. I don't live in AU anymore, but visit from time to time.

I'm not really worried about the stiffness either, well for now at least. When I decide to stiffen up the rear some more it could make it a bit touchy on the street. Stiffness doesn't always directly relate to better handling (well except in a perfect world). Too stiff and your car will suck on anything but glass smooth roads.

Exactly... going through a corner and having your line/handling screwed up royally by a bump, pot hole, or sewer cap SUCKS.

[CPMaverick]

Thats why you run softer springs and get your roll stiffness from roll bars. Then bump doesn't upset the car as much. Having stiff everything is terrible especially for a street car, and the B'ham autox course might as well be a city street. Is there a reason you want the car stiff in pitch? I don't get it. Not saying I have all the answers but in my opinion a car that rattles your teeth is not going to be fast at the autox.

I'd get the softest springs that kept the car from bottoming out.

[AadosX]

There is a huge difference between 8/6 springs and rattling your teeth out. And I agree that the B'Ham autox sucks haha... and that's just after seeing it and not even driving on it.

[ActiveAero]

I plan on upgrading the swap bar accordingly.

However isn't it also true that swap bars generally only control roll on a linear plane. The cars reactions while in progessive state cornering where forces are not just side to side and can include accelerating and braking are more affected by the spring rates.

The sway bars (if I'm correct) are generally going to affect me most at initial turn in, which is very important on a FWD car (this is were you want it to rotate easily because after this point rotation can't be throttle induced) and in steady speed transitional corners such as a slalom.

Less dive under braking is another plus and same with squat under acceleration. Remember this is FWD so weight transfering to the rear is the enemy.

[CPMaverick]

Roll, Squat, Dive, for all practical purposes do not affect weight transfer. This is a common misconception. Weight transfer is based soley on acceleration of the vehicle and CG location. That's whether you are looking at a side or front plane of the car (lateral or longitudinal acceleration). You often want to limit roll or pitch to make the car more responsive (takes time for roll/pitch to occur) or on a car with poor suspension geometrey, to limit suspension movement.

The R shoudl have good suspension geometery, so I don't see much reason to go very stiff. This is purely opinion on my part and I don't claim to be an expert. But unless you find the car slow-responding I wouldn't go stiffer. In most cases the softer the setup the more grip you have. but in transients the car can get very sloppy. Roll bars can make the car feel more precise while maintaining mechanical grip through soft springs (I think)

Roll bars do not affect weight transfer they just affect roll. And they affect any type of roll in any situation, turn in, steady state, it doesn't matter. if the car is seeing roll they are resisting it. But yes very often you see pitch and roll at the same time.

If you want to get specific roll and pitch do affect weight transfer, but ONLY by how they affect the location of the CG of the vehicle. This effect is extremely small. For all purposes, negligible.

[ActiveAero]

Well I can finally stay on my home computer for more than 10minutes. Stupid Sasser B worm virus :evil:

Nice to see a technical debate on here.


Looks like I'll have to think about my wording a little better with you Charlie. I'm not very far along in my ME degree pursuit. :P

Yes technically weight transfer does not occur under any of those situations. The material of the car will not change just because the car is diving or sqauting so yes weight can not literally transfer. The total weight of the car will remain the same under any pitch.

However the car is not floating in space. It's weight is supported by four points (the tires). A change of angle to any of the car's axis alters the weight supported by any of these four points. This isn't just a guess, I've seen it in corner weighting a car as I know you have. The total weight will remain unchanged but the weight supported by the points can and does.

So maybe I should replace "weight transfer" with "transfer of load bearing percentage".

In a corner the car is constantly fighting inertia (duh). Since the tire can only resist the inertia by a given rate the load placed opon it can have a greater effect correct? Accerelation x mass = force correct? If the inertial force changes (like under dive or squat) it is effecting the tires avaibable grip.

By the way I want you to inform us in any area I'm lacking. I know you have been studying this alot longer than me but I'm pretty sure on a few of the concepts. Physics don't always apply to the real world perfectly.

That said for an example GRM (grass roots motorsports) took there basically stock ITR and added a coilover suspension VERY similar to the one I've purchased including the spring rate ratios front and rear (but the rates were even HIGHER). With that modification alone they averaged 1 second per lap faster on a roughly 38 second course.

Even though this setup is pretty stiff, its nothing compared to what alot of guys run. There are plenty running 800-1200lb rates in the rear on my car so I consider this on the very mild side of a race setup in terms of stiffness.

[xamraci]

School is over...and I am still learning. This is awesome :lol:

[CPMaverick]

No Brock, I knew what you meant and weight transfer is the correct term. Weight does transfer, mass doesn't, but weight does.

You are still stuck in a misconception about weight transfer. People think that you can change weight transfer with springs, that a change in spring rate will mean that you load the outside tire more or less. This is basically false. It is difficult to explain without drawing some diagrams or something. But the equation for lateral (cornering) weight transfer has only 3 variables: the height of the car's center of gravity (CG), track width, and acceleration (typically Gs). Likewise, for acceleration weight transfer, the only three variables are CG, accel Gs, and wheelbase.

'Weight Transfer' is a number added onto or subtracted from the car's 'static' weight, or the weight you'd see with the car sitting still.

So say you have 1500 lbs on the front axle, and 1100 lbs on the rear. Under acceleration, you'd see more on the rear. Maybe a weight transfer number of 300 lbs (just making this up). So if you could have scales under the car, you'd see 1200 lbs on the front axle and 1400 lbs on the rear.

The calcs you use here have nothing to do with spring rate. So you see the only way you can affect weight transfer is by changing the CG location or wheelbase/track width.

Now, here's the disclaimer. Say when you are accelerating, the car squats (pitches) a lot. When this pitch happens, technically, the CG does move, usually towards the back. And yes, that affects weight transfer. but if you do the math, its not even worth bothering about most of the time.

Lowering the car (aka lowering the CG) has the best affect on handling, and stiffer springs are often needed just to keep the car from bottoming out. Hence why stiffer springs are what people think about when they think of a better handling car. But they don't make it fast. If you are not lowering at the same time, IMO you are probably not helping things.

For a FWD car, lowering will help reduce weight transfer in acceleration too, so its a good thing for acceleration. In a RWD car it is bad. If you look at old drag cars, they ar raised up big time, because they figured this out. But eventually they went fast enough for aerodynamics to play a bigger factor (or they learned aerodynamics)

[CPMaverick]

Also, the car isn't fighting intertia, inertia is the wrong term. its fighting a force. Inertia is not a force it is a quality like mass.

If a car pitches 8 degrees (a LOT) versus 2 degrees (not much) then the weight transfer difference caused by JUST the pitch is the came as you'd see if you corner weighted the car on a 6 degree incline. I'm not sure how close you level scales but if you tried this out you'd see a very small difference.

What I'm getting at is don't think about weight transfer by looking at roll, squat, pitch, or whatever. A Go-kart has basically the same weight transfer characteristics of a car, and obviously it does not move at all in reference to the tires.

[ActiveAero]

A few questions:

1. How is the car not fighting/resisting interia while it is cornering? You are forcing it continously off a straight path as it follows a radius.

2. Is it not true that extremely small differences that most people won't think matter make all the difference in the world when at the limit in racing?

When you are at 99.999999% of the cars limit a slight change in the CG can mean a lot it would seem.

3. People with stock ITR's and basic lowering springs don't bottom out. Why do ITR's with stiffer rates that aren't any lower run faster times?

[Alex]

I don't think he's denying that stiffer springs can make the car faster around corners. I think he is saying there is a limit to how stiff you want to go. You want the car to be stiff but you need enough travel to absorb bumps in the road so your car doesn't get upset midcorner when you hit a small bump.

[ActiveAero]

We aren't talking about what is too stiff. I'm well aware that stiffer isn't always better (in the real world).

What we are discussing is what roll do spring rates play in handling since they can apparently make a big difference in lap times and handling characteristics.

[xamraci]

Alright...my .02 of ignorance is going to be applied to this discussion. Be prepared for something that lacks all levels of sofistication.

Better lap times with stiffer spring rates on the track. A softer spring is going to allow for a better grip to the road. Seeing that weight(load)can be placed to the ground easier as the spring depresses. With a stiffer spring there might be less grip, but with most stiffer springs you are also looking at a lower center of gravity(seeing that most aftermarket springs are lowering(sport or racing)springs. Handling characteristics can also be attributed to the degree of camber on the wheels. I think that more surface area would allow for better grip and better handling.

Yet when looking at most cars that want to be on a drift setting, we find that camber is a neccisary evil, allowing for tires to be broken loose in the rear. A question in the midst of my bable is: With the camber set and less surface area than normal(even with a wider tire/wheel)how is grip obtained when a drift need not be initiated.

(perhaps this?)
Camber is also a nice thing when taking corners in that the body will roll to the outside allowing the weight of the car to present more surface area in a hard turn.

// <<<<Tire in degree of camber, when forced over(depending on suspension characteristics) the tire should find more surface area under weight being forced to the side facing the outside of the turn.

I know that the handling characteristics of my accord changed dramatically from the center of gravity changing so much. Yet with the higher spring rate from stock...I have a rougher ride in the compromise of better cornering capabilities. In time a TRUE coilover suspension will replace my sport springs and shocks.

[Alex]

Better lap times with stiffer spring rates on the track. A softer spring is going to allow for a better grip to the road. Seeing that weight(load)can be placed to the ground easier as the spring depresses.
I shall reply with my 2 cents of ignorance. :) In theory on a track that is smooth as glass a stiffer spring will give you better lap times than a softer spring would correct? Actually if you had that perfect track with no bumps whatsoever you wouldn't need springs or shocks would you?

[CPMaverick]

A few questions:

1. How is the car not fighting/resisting interia while it is cornering? You are forcing it continously off a straight path as it follows a radius.

2. Is it not true that extremely small differences that most people won't think matter make all the difference in the world when at the limit in racing?

When you are at 99.999999% of the cars limit a slight change in the CG can mean a lot it would seem.

3. People with stock ITR's and basic lowering springs don't bottom out. Why do ITR's with stiffer rates that aren't any lower run faster times?

Well I already said this once but you apparently don't know what inertia is. You can't fight inertia! Nothing fights inertia. Inertia is a quality, a value something has. It is constant. It's like a 1.8L engine displaces 1.8L. A car has inertia, a wheel has inertia, it's value depends on your frame of reference. But inertia doesn't do anything! And it doesn't change.

1. What you are talking about is the car's path is changing and yes there is a resisting force. This is why cars have lateral (side-to-side) acceleration. In a constant turn like a skidpad, a performance car will generate around 1 G lateral acceleration give or take .2 Gs.

This acceleration acts on one point and one point only: The CG of the car. The car's body rolls as a result of the distance from the CG and the roll center of the car. The roll center is determined by suspension geometrey. So body roll and weight transfer are both caused by the same thing: but independent of each other.

2. This isn't F1. Besides the differences aren't some value that you have to guess at. They are easily calculated. You could put your lunchbox in the trunk and see the same weight split difference.

3. I sure as hell can't tell you why one setup works better than another. That's not what I am trying to do. What I've laid out are the bare basics about spring and roll rate only and it gets a lot more complicated. The more you learn the more complicated it starts to get. All I did was say I'm not really sure why you think stiffer is better. And your reasoning is wrong, especially what you said about acceleration weight transfer.

Its funny because even when you understand this stuff a whole lot better, it still doesn't mean that your choices will be best. If a car works with a different setup, then you can be assured that your car will react similarly. But try to understand why. It's not that stiffer springs reduce weight transfer, because they don't. Like I said though, they do increase responsiveness. In a slalom course, stiff (in roll) is generally better. On a skidpad, not so much. So the car might be faster through the transients because of the stiffer rates.

Anyway, read a book or something. Tune to Win is good. Paul haney's tire book has a lot of awesome stuff about tires and also a good section on vehicle dynamics. This stuff can't be explained well in text only, and you won't retain it well either. You need a good reference. Even good magazines like GRM aren't very good on this subject because they aren't vehicle dynamicists, they are editors and writers. And they either get information from the wrong people, or they misinerpret it.

[WiggiE]

Good shiet Charlie!

[ActiveAero]

[quote=ActiveAero]A few questions:


Well I already said this once but you apparently don't know what inertia is. You can't fight inertia! Nothing fights inertia. Inertia is a quality, a value something has. It is constant. It's like a 1.8L engine displaces 1.8L. A car has inertia, a wheel has inertia, it's value depends on your frame of reference. But inertia doesn't do anything! And it doesn't change.

1. What you are talking about is the car's path is changing and yes there is a resisting force. This is why cars have lateral (side-to-side) acceleration. In a constant turn like a skidpad, a performance car will generate around 1 G lateral acceleration give or take .2 Gs.

This acceleration acts on one point and one point only: The CG of the car. The car's body rolls as a result of the distance from the CG and the roll center of the car. The roll center is determined by suspension geometrey. So body roll and weight transfer are both caused by the same thing: but independent of each other.

2. This isn't F1. Besides the differences aren't some value that you have to guess at. They are easily calculated. You could put your lunchbox in the trunk and see the same weight split difference.

3. I sure as hell can't tell you why one setup works better than another. That's not what I am trying to do. What I've laid out are the bare basics about spring and roll rate only and it gets a lot more complicated. The more you learn the more complicated it starts to get. All I did was say I'm not really sure why you think stiffer is better. And your reasoning is wrong, especially what you said about acceleration weight transfer.

Its funny because even when you understand this stuff a whole lot better, it still doesn't mean that your choices will be best. If a car works with a different setup, then you can be assured that your car will react similarly. But try to understand why. It's not that stiffer springs reduce weight transfer, because they don't. Like I said though, they do increase responsiveness. In a slalom course, stiff (in roll) is generally better. On a skidpad, not so much. So the car might be faster through the transients because of the stiffer rates.

Anyway, read a book or something. Tune to Win is good. Paul haney's tire book has a lot of awesome stuff about tires and also a good section on vehicle dynamics. This stuff can't be explained well in text only, and you won't retain it well either. You need a good reference. Even good magazines like GRM aren't very good on this subject because they aren't vehicle dynamicists, they are editors and writers. And they either get information from the wrong people, or they misinerpret it.


So you are saying that when I'm going straight and turn my car doesn't want to continue going straight? Interia might be constant and never change no matter what the car is doing. It's always there and that's that. I understand that. I also understand that as the car turns successfully interia isn't lessened or "beaten", it is always the same because it just is as it is.

However the quality inertia wants the car to keep going in a certain direction and if I want to call successfuling turning the car in the prescence of inertia "fighting" it I will. Unless you can show my some mathematical equation of how the word "fighting" can be used in sentences it kinda sounds like you are just trying to be an ass at times.

Who said anything about F1? So you are saying that my tires can't be at 99.999% of their capacity meaning the slightest change on either end can make a difference?

"All I did was say I'm not really sure why you think stiffer is better. And your reasoning is wrong, especially what you said about acceleration weight transfer."

Why I think it CAN be better (there is a limit to everything in the real world)? Hmmm I don't know I keep seeing these cars and guys who while keeping their SAME dampeners AND ride height move up to stiffer and stiffer rates and produce FASTER lap times.

Was I wrong about acceleration weight transfer? So when my car dives or squats the CG doesn't change at all? Not even .000000000000001 percent? You said that under pitch or dive the CG does change, thus effecting weight transfer but its very slight. So even if it is slight it DOES effect it so how can you say I'm wrong?


I was actually asking you questions to learn, but thanks for trying to be an ass about it.

You can tell us why were are wrong, but can't tell us what is right :? :roll:

[CPMaverick]

Fuck you! I wasn't trying to be an ass but I can sure as hell be if you want me to. You think I typed all that shit for my own pleasure? Go ahead and know everything.

[xamraci]

THE HOSTILITY...SPRINGS ARE SOMETIMES STIFF, SPRINGS ARE SOMETIMES SOFT..>SPRINGS ARE SOMETIMES on our cars...and then sometimes they are off..

RHYME FROM A DRUNK!

HAHAHAHA...ITS KOSHER! LIKE A FUCKING PICKLE :twisted:

[insert_car]

...SPRINGS ARE SOMETIMES STIFF, SPRINGS ARE SOMETIMES SOFT..>SPRINGS ARE SOMETIMES on our cars...and then sometimes they are off..


bwaahhahaa :lol: :lol: OMG i wish she would read that! good one drunk guy. 8)

[Matt Harris]

On a somewhat related note (and mostly posted just to get this thread back on topic), we've started working with the guys at Stasis. They really know their stuff. For those that aren't familiar they are a suspension re-seller, they do custom Koni stuff but their high end stuff is Ohlen, which is incredible suspension. They also run a car in the Speed Channel Touring Car series (98 Audi A4) so they have some great real world experience. In terms of spring rates, their opinion is that the damper is far more important than the spring. They installed Ohlens on our new S4, and it's running 1200 pound springs in the rear, yet the ride is as smooth as the stock car. Their race engineer informed me that spring stiffness is somewhat related to driver skill. Generally as driver skill progresses stiffer and stiffer springs will be used until a certain skill level is achieved then the drivers will generally begin to prefer a somewhat softer spring for better feel. This is non-scientific of course, but is just a little antecdotal evidence that stiffness isn't everything in a suspension. On that note, I've got 450/400 springs on my hatch. 8)

[ActiveAero]

Fuck you! I wasn't trying to be an ass but I can sure as hell be if you want me to. You think I typed all that shit for my own pleasure? Go ahead and know everything.

Everyone including me has typed alot of stupid and pointless stuff on the internet.

I don't know everything. Heck I know that you know WAY MORE THAN ME.

However when you try to get techincal on how I use words like fighting and saying I was " your reasoning is wrong, especially what you said about acceleration weight transfer". The principle of my thinking was right, pitch and roll can effect the CG, but just because it doesn't effect it as much as I thought (well technically I don't know yet because I haven't seen/calculated it myself and don't know how to measure the dive of my car in a corner easily) was no reason to act like I'm a dumbass.

"Inertia = the resistance an object has to a change in its state of motion."
Newton's first law: ""An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."

I think everyone can understand that the reason a car resistists turning is due to the quality of Inertia, while not the actual interia itself (because like you said it is just a quality that describes an objects tendency). Without having to explain this every time and state the laws and such I believe everyone gets the picture when I say "fighting intertia".


Again even though we started kinda arguing you helped me to realize some concepts better that I had misconceptions about or was just plain wrong. It just seemed to be in a derogatory manor at times. If it wasn't meant to be I apologize.

[Jess]

haha you guys are fighting on teh intarweb!

Another unfortunate side effect of hunger
http://www.awt.hr/include/images/masterfoods/snickers.jpg

[ActiveAero]

I found a freaking answer.....I think. I've been searching and asking questions for the past hr so this better be right :P

Reason stiffer springs CAN be better, as in not always, and to a certain point (just so nobody tries to get technical on my wording):

Like Charlie said springs, or the movement created by soft ones, does not affect weight transfer much. However, it does effect how the transferred weight is dealt with in regards to the suspension. The total weight transferred won't change noticeably, but how the force (or energy or whatever the proper term is) is dealt with through the springs effects the dynamic alignment settings of the car. As I'm sure alot of you know alignment settings play a huge part in handling (go drive a car with a ton of toe out to see this point).

This was what Charile was talking about with the roll bars, but our cars have to deal with transfer in several ways. Lateral as well as longitudinal and both at the same time which would be yaw.

I was wrong about the springs causing MORE or LESS weight transfer, but the effect of weight transfer and how it is dealt with DOES seem to be the benefit of stiffer springs.

Any input Charlie? (and no I won't cry when I'm wrong this time :P )

[AU RSX-S]

haha you guys are fighting on teh intarweb!

Another unfortunate side effect of hunger
http://www.awt.hr/include/images/masterfoods/snickers.jpg

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! :lol:

[xamraci]

...SPRINGS ARE SOMETIMES STIFF, SPRINGS ARE SOMETIMES SOFT..>SPRINGS ARE SOMETIMES on our cars...and then sometimes they are off..


bwaahhahaa :lol: :lol: OMG i wish she would read that! good one drunk guy. 8)

Southern Comfort PWNED ME! :lol:

[quattro]

I'll chime in because I'm not sure if Chuck is going to...

Yes, a car with lots of roll/pitch can have undesirable camber and toe changes as the suspension moves through its available travel. This depends entirely on suspension geometry like Charlie said earlier. Stiffer springs and/or antiroll bars will reduce roll and pitch, keeping the camber a little closer to where you like it.

If you want to improve your track times, learn to tune your dampers and dont worry so much about the springs.