suspension questions...

[xamraci]

alright...here is the situation..

My accord suspension sucks fucking balls :(

I found a few things online that really caught my eye...and some damn good prices...however price isnt really that big of an issue...here is what I want...and here are the problems I have come across...

(Coilovers with Pre Set Dampening Rates)

Something that rides nice but can still be agressive(this will not be an autox car)there is no need for it being an autox car with a t3/t4 turbo that probably wont be spooling fast enough for me to really enjoy an autox anyway...

Three locking perches..

2 perches to adjust the springs height, and one the adjust the length of the strut/shock...this is the technology that allows the spring to still travel its entire distance and the strut adjusts the height while still allowing the spring to travel and the shock to ensure the use of all its dampening force...unlike a 2 perch system(tein)that compresses the spring to change the ride height of the vehicle...which makes the ride rough considering you are compressing your springs more than neccisary...

That is my understanding of it all...I wanted anyone elses comments on the issue

Brock, Charlie, Jeff(you three had a good debate over suspension once before...that is why I brought yalls names up)

I found a few really nice set-ups...two with triple perch...and one with double perch...

Thanks guys

[WiggiE]

Don't worry about all the perch BS. It can be useful, but unless you borrow Jess's ass-o-meter, you won't be able to dial it in easily. Just get a good, well performing setup. For someone new, usually the less adjustments the better.

On brands, Tein's are supposed to be real cushy, but have good performance. Or you could go Ground Control w/ Koni Yellow's.

[xamraci]

NEX, TANABE, HAYAME, all of them provide the triple perch system...and I want a nice smooth ride 8)

Thanks Wiggie

[AadosX]

On brands, Tein's are supposed to be real cushy, but have good performance.

Have you ever ridden in my car? :lol:

[AadosX]

What springs do you have? If you have something like Eibach, and like the height, then save money, and just buy some nicer shocks. OE shocks like Monroe suck ass for performance. All your car needs is some nice springs and nice shocks like KYB AGX, etc.

I personally think that nice coilovers are pointless on an Accord sedan. Absolutely no offence meant, I think any car can be modded and fun can be had. But I don't think that an Accord is worth expensive coilovers. Spend that money on boost, or something other than cars.

[xamraci]

the ride heights are un-even from front to back...I have seen another accord that suffered the same fate as my spring batch...the drop turns out to be 2." up front and 1.5 in the rear...instead of 1.5" front and 1.75 rear! So...that sucks balls...and a good suspension should be wanted and needed on any car...I understand you mean no offence john...but...I have three examples of accord sedans
http://www.honda.co.jp/collection-hall/library/2001snd/image/8.jpg
http://plaza26.mbn.or.jp/~techkie/97jtcc11.jpg
http://homepage1.nifty.com/koubon/takuyak/tk-tc9701.jpg

All Three where top race cars in japan...The castrol accord winning first several seasons in a row...and the jaacs and Piaa not far behind in a field of stiff competitors...did they have nice suspension? 8) ...Accords rawk balls...granted I dont have an h22a1 resting under my hood...and its not tuned by mugen...but the car was designed to be raced, it was designed to be DRIVEN...and a nice suspension is much better than having a non controlable ride hide, shitty dampening force...and I have no need for adjustable shocks...I would prefer adjustable ride height...this will not be a track car...it will be a street car

[CPMaverick]

Accords do have pretty nice suspensions just like Civics and Integras USED to.

But you said you aren't even interested in auto-x, so I'm not sure what you are asking. If you aren't getting a suspension for performance, then really I guess you want the car to feel more precise and likely stiffer. So really your only choice is to get others opinions that have a particular setup and see if its what you are after.

Probably some bigger wheels with lower profile tires and a small ride height drop and slightly stiffer springs is all you will need to get a better feeling car in my opinion.

Don't underestimate tires, on that SHO I drove for awhile I put some BFG KDWs on it, replacing some shitty tires, and it was an incredible difference in feel. Of course I kinda prefferred the shitty tires because you could slide around more. ;)

[insert_car]

I put some BFG KDWs on it, replacing some shitty tires, and it was an incredible difference in feel.

thats going to be my next set of tires. how was the noise factor. i have michelon pilot sports and they are kinda loud. :? i love the tires though! just a little loud for my taste.

anyways like he said. tires will make a HHHHUUUGGGGEEE difference in handling

[xamraci]

I am very impressed with the characteristics of my current tires...granted I eat thru them in 10kmiles...they are amazing and especially for the price...they perform much better than my michilene pilots did 8)

I just want a nice ride...my car is gonna be an interstate muscle killer if anything...not a road-x beast...

Thanks YO!

And john...I didnt wanna seem snappy when I posted that reply...I am starting my period :P (JK)was in a shit ass mood earlier...I am better now :D

[quattro]

I would just find some good aftermarket shocks that match up with your springs. Something adjustable would be very nice. I think coilovers are a waste of money for 75% of the people that buy them. Do you really want to adjust your ride hight that much?

[ActiveAero]

What springs do you have? If you have something like Eibach, and like the height, then save money, and just buy some nicer shocks. OE shocks like Monroe suck ass for performance. All your car needs is some nice springs and nice shocks like KYB AGX, etc.

I personally think that nice coilovers are pointless on an Accord sedan. Absolutely no offence meant, I think any car can be modded and fun can be had. But I don't think that an Accord is worth expensive coilovers. Spend that money on boost, or something other than cars.

1. "and nice shocks like KYB AGX, etc." Please stop before somebody listens to you. In terms of performance replacement shocks KYB's are at the bottom of the list. They are better than having blown shocks and do offer adjustability but the quality and ability to cope with higher rates for extended periods of time is just not there.

2. You do know his Accord has a better suspension design than your 240 don't you?

Besides, who in the hell is going to listen to a little fuck like yourself anyway? Everyone on this board thinks its pointless that homosexuals like you modify cars, but hey what can we do? Oh wait, nevermind, I forgot you always get somebody else to do everything for you. Silly me.


I agree with what most people are saying (except this idiot that I quoted). I think you'd be better off with something simple. 99.9% of people with coilovers never adjust them anyway.

Some Koni Yellows or Bilstein sport shocks with a nice set of springs will probably be your best bet and give you the least amount of trouble while providing excellent performance.

What kind of tires are you running? Tires = #1 modification.

[xamraci]

To settle all the talk about springs...My current springs...are totally be-funked...and my ride height is not equal from front to back...

Coilovers are only going to be 600-700$ exactly what I will pay for new springs and shocks...so I dont see why not(and the spring can be interchanged to a different stiffness if need be)..and I will have to adjust my ride height..especially when I eventually get 17s for my car...Dont get me wrong...my car rides great(minus dampening :( )..but my springs/shocks arent exactly what I should have purchased(atleast the ones I recieved :( )oh well...I want an adjustable ride height due to rim up sizing...and these sets can be fitted with camber plates..and one of the sets comes with camber plates...doubt I will drop it that far...but...who knows

I have CUM-HOEZ! KH11~stock size...
In a tire test...they ranked best for sport sedans...consumer testing that is...
http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/kumho/ku_ecsta_kh11_ci2_l.jpg

They are great tires...

[xamraci]

BTW..thanks for the input..I really appreciate it...

[WiggiE]

Look into a Eibach Pro-kit, they have a nice ride, Eibach springs are the shizzle, and they are decently firm. Pair them up with Koni Red's or Bilsteins and you'll have the best bang for you buck and a cushy ride.

Don't forget your car has another kind of spring that is very useful to sharpening the handling, but doesn't affect ride comfort. They're called sway bars. Def look into upgrading those and getting a sticker tire. The tire you have is decent, but there is ALOT better. Maybe not for stock size though. :?

[xamraci]

yeah...I can get some stickies..but I need a street tire...

[WiggiE]

..but I need a street tire...

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/yokohama/yo_avs_es_100_ci2_l.jpg


http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/bridgestone/bs_potenza_re950.jpg

[ActiveAero]

Yeah I don't really think the tires you have are that great. They might be good all around tires, but I know there are waaay better street tires out there for us performance minded guys. What tire size to you currently run?

Oh and about the $600-$700 coilovers vs "just" springs and shocks. What kind of coilovers are they? Good springs and shocks > cheap coilovers. If you could provide the names of the actual products you are considering maybe we can help you figure out if they are crap or not.

[ActiveAero]

I just looked up the Kumho KH11's, eh the are on the lowest end of the summer tire categories. Probably why I've never heard of anyone using them. They might be good in there class but you need to step up to high performance summer tires. I assure you it will make a TON of difference. There are plenty of offerings that will give you decent mileage while providing excellent stick and response. It said that the KH11 are designed to be complient touring car tires, which probably means they have soft sidewalls.

[xamraci]

that is all I do in my car...is touring...

THe Suspensions come from these Companies...

Hayame(partner with tokico for this suspension), Apex-i , and Tanabe

[WiggiE]

THe Suspensions come from these Companies...

Hayame(partner with tokico for this suspension), Apex-i , and Tanabe
I know each company doesn't just make one setup for each car. Which model.

Do some research.
1. Do you want progressive or linear springs?
2. Do you want the ability to run stiffer springs in the future?
3. What spring rates are you looking for?
4. Do you still want a much greater bias to understeer?
5. Do you need the ability to change ride height?
6. Do you need the ability to adjust dampening?
7. Have you ridden in any setup that you enjoyed?
8. Have you ridden in any setup that you didn't enjoy?
9. Do you need a true coilover setup?
10. How much are you willing to spend?
11. How soft do you want the car? (everyones definition of soft is way different)

[AadosX]

What springs do you have? If you have something like Eibach, and like the height, then save money, and just buy some nicer shocks. OE shocks like Monroe suck ass for performance. All your car needs is some nice springs and nice shocks like KYB AGX, etc.

I personally think that nice coilovers are pointless on an Accord sedan. Absolutely no offence meant, I think any car can be modded and fun can be had. But I don't think that an Accord is worth expensive coilovers. Spend that money on boost, or something other than cars.

1. "and nice shocks like KYB AGX, etc." Please stop before somebody listens to you. In terms of performance replacement shocks KYB's are at the bottom of the list. They are better than having blown shocks and do offer adjustability but the quality and ability to cope with higher rates for extended periods of time is just not there.

2. You do know his Accord has a better suspension design than your 240 don't you?

Besides, who in the hell is going to listen to a little fuck like yourself anyway? Everyone on this board thinks its pointless that homosexuals like you modify cars, but hey what can we do? Oh wait, nevermind, I forgot you always get somebody else to do everything for you. Silly me.


I agree with what most people are saying (except this idiot that I quoted). I think you'd be better off with something simple. 99.9% of people with coilovers never adjust them anyway.

Some Koni Yellows or Bilstein sport shocks with a nice set of springs will probably be your best bet and give you the least amount of trouble while providing excellent performance.

What kind of tires are you running? Tires = #1 modification.

Once again, wow, why do people get so pissy on forums. Anyways, I'm not going to let it get to me, I've never even met you.

First things first, I didn't know he wanted really stiff springs. I can show you tons of people WITH 5th Gen Accords (I used to own one) that run Eibach/H&R springs with KYB AGX and love them. They've had them for a very long time with no problems.

"I forgot you always get somebody else to do everything for you." Umm, I don't even know where that came from. Once again, you don't know me at all. The reason I'm selling my car is because I didn't install the engine. I installed everything else on there... Of course Jess and others helped. But for most of the stuff I didn't even have any help.

How is his set-up nicer than mine? I'd like to learn. One thing I like about my car is that it's RWD. I can easily adjust camber from an upper mount rather than having to use a camber kit in the control arm. In the rear?.. same thing with an adjustable RUCA.

EDIT: Do you live in AU? That's what it says under your username, but why have you never been to a meet lately.

[AadosX]

As far as tires, I'd stay away from the AVS ES100 if you're using stock wheel sizes. The sidewalls are weak, and unless you have a larger wheel/stretching the tires, you will easily be able to feel the flex.

[Matt Harris]

The AVS ES100 would be a big improvement over what he has. They are actually very good tires for the money. They are a step down from a BFG KDW or an S02 in terms of performance, but they've also got better treadwear and will most likely be better in the rain than the S02 at least. And they are certainly worlds better than a Kumho touring tire. For an intermediate high performance tire the AVS ES100 would do quite nicely. I've driven them on an A4 and S2000, and while their max grip isn't quite up there with the KDW's (Best dry performing non-R compound tire i've ever had on a car) they are very progressive and easy to drive, and are really quite nice to ride on. They are a bit loud, but not any worse than most of the other high performance tires out there.

And as far as suspension goes, if you really want height adjustable coilovers, for the money it would be hard to beat a Koni/ground control setup. A good set of springs with Koni's would do you just about as well and be a little cheaper too, just sacrificing the ride height adjustability.

[AccoRdINlySlo]

Okie only listen to me, I am the ACCORD GOD!!!!LOLZ. Honestly man the H&R race springs/KYB combo is ok, I got that but don't know how the car reallie handles bc of all the stereo shiet I got, but its ok to me but I say this bc both my bro cars rides so much better but they run the Koni shocks. From what I learned and all, U can prettie much pair up almost any spring with Koni and it will almost be the best ride every. If you can do a Eibach/Koni setup, U'll love it.
Like wat Matt or so was saying, its better to like spend $700 or so on springs/shocks compared to cheap coilovers. Also one thing with coilovers,how often do U reallie plan on adjusting them U know??But with me even if it was cheap and related to like other compaines, if it was so cheap and all, why wouldn't everyone run it u know. My gf has the Tanabe coilovers and loves them.
As for tires u dont want the Kumo711 if all u do is drive....the tread wear on them sux azz monkeys. The 712 are a lil a better. If you want a tire that will last, get the Yok's Avid H4, I'm on my 2nd set and my 1st set lasted me a lil over 60,000 miles and supposely they hook ok too from what I was told.Hope this all helps.

[xamraci]

Thanks for that advice steven...I was hoping you would post...
I like the idea behind the Tanabe Coilovers...

1. Do you want progressive or linear springs?
Progressive
2. Do you want the ability to run stiffer springs in the future?
Yes, and those companies offer that
3. What spring rates are you looking for?
a mixed driving spring rate, nothing overly stiff..
4. Do you still want a much greater bias to understeer?
(I will have to look into that)
5. Do you need the ability to change ride height?
YES...with the upgrade to larger rims in future
6. Do you need the ability to adjust dampening?
Nope, my car wont be tracked
7. Have you ridden in any setup that you enjoyed?
Jess s13, thats about it on modded suspension...
8. Have you ridden in any setup that you didn't enjoy?
Mine, Johns(bit too stiff)
9. Do you need a true coilover setup?
Yes
10. How much are you willing to spend?
I already have my prices on what I am looking for...7-1000
11. How soft do you want the car? (everyones definition of soft is way different)
I dont want a car that just DIGS if I steer hard...I want response but a nice interstate ride...

And in terms of What types...

TANABE PRO S-0C TYPE-2-765
Apex-i WS Damper(on sale)-595
Hayame Makes ONe Coilover System-655

[dc2nr]

i like my eibach prokit springs. i wanna upgrade to tanabe coilovers or JIC's in the future. full coilover systems roxors.

[AadosX]

Oh and one more thing. I'm not bashing Accords or FWD here. But just because one car has a nicer suspension setup over another car, doesn't mean it will handle better. Things like weight, drivetrain, etc. all make just as big of a difference.

[1.8t]

Driver is also pretty important as well hot shot :wink: 8)

[insert_car]

yup, driver and tires are number 1 in my book. :wink:

[CPMaverick]

If you are just looking for a car that 'digs in' more when you turn, I'm thinking you want a more responsive car. Your car takes awhile to 'settle' into a corner.

In that case get some swaybars. Same interstate ride, much more responsive turn-in. They will be super-cheap compared to what you are talking about, and if you still want more go from there.

I think you are looking at far too expensive packages for what you want the car to do.

[ActiveAero]

First things first, I didn't know he wanted really stiff springs. I can show you tons of people WITH 5th Gen Accords (I used to own one) that run Eibach/H&R springs with KYB AGX and love them. They've had them for a very long time with no problems.

How is his set-up nicer than mine? I'd like to learn. One thing I like about my car is that it's RWD. I can easily adjust camber from an upper mount rather than having to use a camber kit in the control arm. In the rear?.. same thing with an adjustable RUCA.

EDIT: Do you live in AU? That's what it says under your username, but why have you never been to a meet lately.

I see a lot of cars with Type-R stickers too. Does that make it cool? KYB AGX shocks are fine for what your average Accord owner will do with the car, but compared to the other offerings out there they are not considered a "good" shock, which you stated them as being. That was my point.

He has a double wishbone design on all four corners, which is superior from an engineering standpoint than your setup. Basically his setup keeps the tires were the need to be under more diverse ranges of motion. Charlie can jump in on this one and explain in depth, however the relevance of this can be argued forever since Porsche and BMW also have less advanced design and they sure as heck do good in racing. I just brought it up because I don't like you. :P


Back to the point. I think all you need is like Matt and Wiggie have stated. A GC coilover setup with a good non adjustable shock (since you said you didn't need one) should be perfect.

[xamraci]

well...I need height adjustment...and the setup I found exceeds that of a GC setup with non adjust shocks because the shocks have been matched to the spring rate...and I am going to buy them sometime this week...pretty stiff spring rate...but has had good reviews from other drivers...Sway bars and things in that relm will come after I get my turbo installed and all that other stuff...I have a front upper strut brace and can actually tell a difference from when I installed that...

Reason behind me getting a new suspension...
1. My springs sagged horridly and the shocks dont have the dampening force needed for the spring rate...
2. I want to be able to raise my car if I get larger rims
3. I can fine tune my ride height to exactly how I want it with a coilover setup
I have no other reasons than that...
With the advice I have recieved...I will probably get another set of rims and put some higher performance tires on there when I get the chance...and sway bars, new bushings, rear upper strut brace...and a few other suspension modifications...that I am almost certain I will look to this forum for advice on my choices...I have my own personal reasons behind A TRUE coilover suspension...and the cool thing about the suspension I found is that...right now the shock can be replaced on the suspension...by way of a shock core...and they have said that eventually(with in the year), there will be a way to swap in adjustable shocks in place of the stock Tokico Illuminas...so that is a really nice aspect to the suspension I found...and the spring isnt compressed to change ride height...the actual length of the strut/shock housing is being shortened or lengthed...so both my spring and shock are allowed to travel to full capability...

Yall have been a great help...and I will be lookin in to some YOKO AVS es100(I think thats them..)I get a great deal on them from who I get tires from...and they got decent ratings...

Another question...

IN terms of TIRE sizing...I have 195/60/15

The first number dictates the profile of the Tire?(width between the outside of the rim to the outter tread of the tire?)

that is my question...

[ActiveAero]

So what is this mystery setup?

Who are these "other drivers"? There are tons of mizzad tite pimps dat think cut springs are da shit.

You are wrong about your tire sizing as well. You might have been asking but I couldn't tell.

The first number is the WIDTH in MM. The second number is your profile in terms of the aspect ratio. That just means the second number is a percentage.

Example 195/50 tire is 195mm wide. The aspect ratio (or profile number) is 50, which means its 50% of the 195 or 97.5mm.

[CPMaverick]

How do you know that

'the shocks I have dont have the dampening force needed for the spring rate'

?

[CPMaverick]

195/60/15

195mm wide
60% aspect ratio
15" wheel

195*.60=117mm sidewall height

117mm*2+15"=615mm diameter=24.2"

[xamraci]

So what is this mystery setup?

Who are these "other drivers"? There are tons of mizzad tite pimps dat think cut springs are da shit.

You are wrong about your tire sizing as well. You might have been asking but I couldn't tell.

The first number is the WIDTH in MM. The second number is your profile in terms of the aspect ratio. That just means the second number is a percentage.

Example 195/50 tire is 195mm wide. The aspect ratio (or profile number) is 50, which means its 50% of the 195 or 97.5mm.

I was asking...I thought it was the second number...but wasnt sure...
they are not MAD tizight drivers YO...nor are they cut springs...but I like the idea behind being able to drop in adjustable shocks in the future...I have only reviews on bilingual forums...seeing as the suspension has only been over here for a year now..there is a guy selling them on honda-tech...they retail for nearly 1k but are being sold at around 650-750$....HAYAME is the brande...and tokico is the shock partner...a much better setup than GCs and Non Adjustables...so I think that is what i am going with...then later on...other suspension components...

[WiggiE]

a much better setup than GCs and Non Adjustables...so I think that is what i am going with...then later on...other suspension components...
I would put a set of Koni red's or Bilsteins with the right spring rate GC's and I can promise you it'll smoke you're setup. If you look at Koni's dyno charts (one of the few to actually publish their dynos), you will find a good spring rate that will easily match their dampening force. You do realize that most "coilover" setups have a huge tendency to understeer. They do this for safety reasons. Now, with GC's you either pick your spring rates or you can take the ones they suggest. Also, if you want to change out springs later on down the road, they are super cheap to change out and find springs for. They are simply your run of the mill Eibach ERS springs.


WHY DO YOU NEED RIDE HEIGHT ADJUSTABLE??? You said you are going plus sizing, that DOES NOT mean the overall package will be bigger. The overall diameter of the tire will stay the same.

Don't get coilovers so you can switch them out and have them all adjustable. If you want adjustability, then get it. If you don't know what you are getting into, then getting none or very little (ride height and dampening, NO MORE).

If your springs sagged like hell, they are garbage. I think you'll find that linear springs will have a much higher tendency to not sag. Also, why do you think your shocks don't have the required dampening force?? I'll bet you have weak springs that the shocks could have handled. It's the drop that shocks can't handle more than anything.

[Matt Harris]

a much better setup than GCs and Non Adjustables...so I think that is what i am going with...then later on...other suspension components...

What makes you say that?...I'll tell you right now that you are almost certainly wrong.

From what I can tell you really need to educate yourself further on the fundamentals involved here. Because I think you lack a basic understanding of what you need in order to accomplish your goals with the suspension.

[CPMaverick]

dubble posed

[CPMaverick]

Dude, just do whatever you want.

It doesn't matter anyway, you don't track race, you just want to do something just so you can do something.

Anything out there is good enough for what you want.

Just don't ask if you aren't gonna listen.

[surfstang]

you just want to do something just so you can do something.

hahaha

[AadosX]

Two things I'd like to throw out there.

Using a GC sleeve coilover with a seperate shock:

With this setup, (correct me if I'm wrong) you adjust the height of the car by actually compressing the spring, which in turn compresses the shock in the 'neutral' position (where the car naturally sits after lowered). Doing this lessens the amount of travel for the shock, and dependant on the type of spring, the spring rate?



Also, I'm pretty sure that his new true coilover setup will come with new pillowball upper mounts, which is always nice.

[xamraci]

I have done my research...if you compress a SPRING further by adjusting ride height...it inhibits the overall performance of the suspension(in that regaurd, I AM NOT WRONG!)...WHERE AS the suspension I am purchasing...DOES NOT COMPRESS THE SPRING FURTHER TO ADJUST RIDE HEIGHT...THEREFORE...its better than GC(which compresses a spring further to lower the height of the car) and non adjustable shock combo...I asked for advice and I got it...yall never answered my questions about the Triple perch, and some of you discussed coilovers..most of you told me what you think I needed...I asked about coilovers...you all told me about springs and shocks...I want height adjustment...I want to be able to set my car at the height I really want...and I dont want to inhibit my ride quality by compressing my spring further...Those are two things I am certain of...I am pretty sure if you compress a spring futher...it will not be able to work at its maximum

And wiggie to answer your question...I purchased...H&R sport springs with a 1.5" and 1.75" drop and when the car hits a bump at a high rate of speed its almost like the suspension bottoms out...to nearly a slam...and on some occasions the front support actually scrapes...I would have thought that the shock would absorb the drop back down to aid the spring...I dont know what the deal with my springs is...it really let me down...especially since I heard such good things about H&R...

[WiggiE]

Here's a really good idea: get linear springs with really low spring rates.
That will allow you to have that soft cushy ride, but no worries of sagging. Good spring rates for your car would be F 100, R 50. That setup would f$#king rock. Then take your stock shocks and drill a small holes in them and drop little pebbles down in there. Their extra weight and small size would help the shocks dampen it better. Also, don't forget to rip out your bumpstops, don't need those, they just get in the way. Ohhhhhhhh, one other thing.....cut your front sway bar half way through the middle, so that you'll get less suspension bind and the car will rotate much better.

[xamraci]

Please dont act like a smartass...I answerd your question...if I dont fucking understand exactly how dampening force works...then atleast link me to something that fucking explains it...and stop acting like an ass hole...and it doesnt fucking matter either way...half of you have never met me in person...and dont even know me...I dont claim to know everything...I dont claim my fucking car is fast, I asked for some answers and got people telling me what they thought I needed to do...The suspension I am looking at...has been well liked by several people on honda-tech, and several accord forums, that use the suspension..I DO NOT need adjustable dampening...I wouldnt even begin to understand what exactly I needed or what to go on...I asked about COILOVERS...that is what I wanted some answers about...not what you thought I needed to Get...because I dont want fucking springs and adjustable shocks...that was never even a thought in my mind...

I dont get why people have to get on a forum and act like a bunch of fucking ass holes...its fucking pointless...

I could give two shits what other pithy pointless bull shit comments you all have left to make...because its not aiding in the conversation and begins to be completely off the fucking topic...

I have been into car modification for not even a fucking year now...and the only knowledge I can base dampening force on...would be how it was implemented in mountain bike front suspensions...

Get a fucking impression of me thru the fucking internet if you want...but dont act like a fucking prick

[WiggiE]

You asked for help and you weren't willing to listen.


Don't be a douche.

[Matt Harris]

I have done my research...if you compress a SPRING further by adjusting ride height...it inhibits the overall performance of the suspension(in that regaurd, I AM NOT WRONG!)...WHERE AS the suspension I am purchasing...DOES NOT COMPRESS THE SPRING FURTHER TO ADJUST RIDE HEIGHT...THEREFORE...its better than GC(which compresses a spring further to lower the height of the car)


Ride height on a GC coilover is adjusted by moving a perch up and down the threaded body while the spring is in an uncompressed state. There is no additional compression going on in order to adjust ride height. So either you have your terms mixed up or you're wrong. The static load of the car will dictate the compression on the springs at rest, the placement of the collar will dictate ride height, it has nothing to do with any additional compression forces.

[AadosX]

So are GC springs shorter than normal ones on a given car?

[xamraci]

You asked for help and you weren't willing to listen.


Don't be a douche.

I asked about coilovers, not springs, I wasnt willing to listen to something that wasnt going to do what I want it to do(RIDE HIEGHT)...you acted like a prick...and so did a few other people who dont even know me...so I dont see how thats me acting like a douche, in my opinion its the exact opposite...if you cant answer a question clearly...dont post, if I wanted to hear about springs and shocks...I would have asked about spring and shock combos...

And I tried to explain why i think my dampening force doesnt match my spring rate and you acted like a fucking ass hole...I guess its fun to be a fucking prick on a forum?

And Matt, in the case of the GC coilovers...there seems to be one large perch...?
I am asking a question...not attempting to answer my own...most coilovers compress a spring further to adjust ride height...and this GC kit doesnt seem to have anything that would support a way to adjust height any other way than by doing so...In the case in which you explained...it is very simular to the system I am looking at...and it comes with matched shock dampening(which by the way, an explanation about dampening would be nice..)unless its just a sin to not completely understand...and in that case...please whoever wants too...continue to act like a prick towards my lack of knowledge and me if you care to do so...

I am not on here to be a dick head or dis an idea completely...but I want height adjustment..because I want to be able to dial in my ride height precisely...and raise the car if its too low...or drop the car if I think its too high...if I get larger rims and rubber that isnt like rubber bands and I think it sits to close to my fenders...i would like to be able to raise the car...

[CPMaverick]

I have done my research...if you compress a SPRING further by adjusting ride height...it inhibits the overall performance of the suspension(in that regaurd, I AM NOT WRONG!)...WHERE AS the suspension I am purchasing...DOES NOT COMPRESS THE SPRING FURTHER TO ADJUST RIDE HEIGHT...THEREFORE...its better than GC(which compresses a spring further to lower the height of the car)


Ride height on a GC coilover is adjusted by moving a perch up and down the threaded body while the spring is in an uncompressed state. There is no additional compression going on in order to adjust ride height. So either you have your terms mixed up or you're wrong. The static load of the car will dictate the compression on the springs at rest, the placement of the collar will dictate ride height, it has nothing to do with any additional compression forces.

Well often you won't have a 'rattling' spring at full droop, which means that you will compress the spring when you adjust it.

However you are completely right that the car's weight will always result in the same amount of overall spring compression. Unless your suspension is at full droop (monster truck style) then you change nothing by adjusting ride height with a threaded adjuster. It just moves the bottom of the spring up. The top is still the same distance from the bottom given a load.

Someone has been listening to internet experts.... And they are telling him he needs to spend $1k on his Accord to be cool... :twisted:

And in that regaurd, I AM NOT WRONG! bwhaha

[xamraci]

no one told me to order coilover kit to be cool...you dont know me as i have pointed out...I want height adjustment...that is what lies underneath my purpose in purchasing coilovers...

[CPMaverick]

My problem is you are talking about looking for a damping force to match your spring rate, when you've just proved that you have no idea how a SPRING even works.

A spring resists load. If you put 100 lb on a 100 lb/in spring, it becomes 1 inch shorter (assuming linear). It will always be 1 inch shorter when it supports 100 lb! Thats the definition!

If you move its perch up 1 inch, the car gets in inch higher. The spring is still supporting the same load, and will continue to be the same length. Its the same as if you put the spring on a table and picked the table up. The spring performance is not affected. Nothing is except ride height.

I know its a bit of a flame, but when you post up about buying something and everyone says your choices make no sense, then you bust out with 'I've done my research and I know my shit' when its obvious you have no clue, well you deserve a little flamebroiledness. :twisted:

[xamraci]

I read why Tein used a third perch, and I read why Hayame used a third perch, and I read why Tanabe Used a third perch...and they used the sam reasons that I listed...That is all I am saying...I guess the Manufactures of these companies are just "Internet Experts"...the third adjustment also deals with "allowing adjustments for proper stroke length and preload tension."

I never said I new my shit...I said I did research...I only stated on here what I read from manufacturers...and I asked wether one was less or more important from the other...and its true wiggie said not to stress they perch systems...an explanation of either system was what I was looking for...I dont know much about suspensions...which Is why I asked the question in the first place...

[CPMaverick]

Yep. Its very simple as far as I can tell. Moving the lower perch higher affects nothing. The only thing you have to worry about is shock travel.

I don't claim to be the most knowledgable person about shocks or springs but I can't see any reason why that's not true. I'm open to reasons why this is not the case. Besides Honda Tech posts.

[CPMaverick]

I guess when you say 'I AM NOT WRONG', that does not imply that you think you know your shit, eh? :lol:

[CPMaverick]

(which by the way, an explanation about dampening would be nice..)unless its just a sin to not completely understand...and in that case...please whoever wants too...continue to act like a prick towards my lack of knowledge and me if you care to do so...


The concept of dampers is simple. Knowing what damping rate you need is not. I don't even claim to know where to start when it comes to that. So I'm not flaming you for not knowing, I was just a little interested to hear you say that you knew your damping rates were not right.

[xamraci]

being that I dont know much about suspensions...which is more than obvious...

I was under the impression that this system did not have an affect on shock travel....because its a shock charge inside of an adjustable shock/strut houseing...

I am in search of answers...

So It seems...the springs are manufactured by SkUNK2, the shocks are designed by Tokico(illumina cores)

http://www.prolightstar.com/images/hayamecoilover150.jpg

[xamraci]

(which by the way, an explanation about dampening would be nice..)unless its just a sin to not completely understand...and in that case...please whoever wants too...continue to act like a prick towards my lack of knowledge and me if you care to do so...


The concept of dampers is simple. Knowing what damping rate you need is not. I don't even claim to know where to start when it comes to that. So I'm not flaming you for not knowing, I was just a little interested to hear you say that you knew your damping rates were not right.

in that case...I went on what I thought dampening did...and I thought it worked like the dampeners on my Mountain Bike worked...I would bottom out due to them being too soft(I didnt have adjustable dampening on my mountain bike :( )...it wouldnt catch my weight in a fall and I would bottom out on my upper stops(much like Bump Stops in a Car) I asked someone about why my car would seemingly bottom out sometimes at high speeds and they said that my shocks might be too soft for lowered ride or spring rate...I made a statement based soley on assumption...purely in hopes of recieving an answer...not a flaming

[CPMaverick]

I was under the impression that this system did not have an affect on shock travel....because its a shock charge inside of an adjustable shock/strut houseing...

I don't understand what you are saying here.

When I said shock travel is all you have to worry about, I just meant if you go too high or too low with the perch you might bottom out the shock. Very unlikely that this would happen.

[xamraci]

okay...I misunderstood

umm...the bottom portion of the system is just like another perch it can go higher or lower...but the shock isnt inside the entirty of that length that is expose...I tried to help explain what I was trying to say with that picture...but that picture is small...and I could just be totally confused, which isnt an uncommon occurence :oops:
http://www.speedstash.com/hayame/hayameco_large1.jpg

[ActiveAero]

being that I dont know much about suspensions...which is more than obvious...

I was under the impression that this system did not have an affect on shock travel....because its a shock charge inside of an adjustable shock/strut houseing...

I am in search of answers...

So It seems...the springs are manufactured by SkUNK2, the shocks are designed by Tokico(illumina cores)

http://www.prolightstar.com/images/hayamecoilover150.jpg


You'll find by doing a little research that Koni yellows are considered a superior shocks to Illumina's. Just thought you might like to know. Yes they are adjustable which you say you don't want, but will it really hurt to be able to play around with your dampening? If you don't want to deal with it just set them to full "soft".

Like Matt said I thought GC's just reposistion the spring up or down the shaft of the shock without compressing it. I guess this would effect shock travel, but since you can order the setup to your needs and Koni are a very capable shock they should be able to handle any adjustment you throw at them unless you plan on slamming the car to the ground, heck even then they could find an appropriate length shock.

A BUNCH of road racers use this setup (except with MUCH higher spring rates than you will be using) and they don't seem to have any issue with it. Just a bit of information you might find useful.

[xamraci]

I understand that...and after reading what matt said...I am not as leary of ordering a GC setup with adjustables...I know that their company can set a dampening force to go with the spring rate I choose...but I worry about the same thing that is happening with my car now...which I cant explain in words...because I dont know enough to explain it...and no it wouldnt hurt to be able to adjust my dampening...but I am a person that might fiddle with shit too much if its there to be fiddled with...I was unaware of how GC adjusted height with their coilovers...I saw the images and read what little descriptions I could and thought they adjusted like all other sleeve Coilovers...

and in terms of my drop...I want to just dial it in so the car sits even from front to back...I wont go for a severe drop...at all!

[WiggiE]

The reason why you were treated like a two year old was because you made many presumptions in this thread. If you had simply come in here and asked questions instead of assuming things, they we would have treated the situation differently.

Many people tried to help you find a system that would fit your needs better and really you jsut about totally ignored that. They were trying to help you out and not let you blow your money, but you take that for "assholishness".

a much better setup than GCs and Non Adjustables...so I think that is what i am going with...then later on...other suspension components...
Saying things like this, get you flamed.

Loosen up guy, if you'll go back and re-read our posts we weren't trying to down you or anything. We're simply trying to find the reasons for your "wanted setup".

Remember, next time keep an open mind.




Oh, and dont' be a douche. :wink:

[AadosX]

This is the biggest example of the pot calling the kettle black I've ever seen.

[xamraci]

The reason why you were treated like a two year old was because you made many presumptions in this thread. If you had simply come in here and asked questions instead of assuming things, they we would have treated the situation differently.

Many people tried to help you find a system that would fit your needs better and really you jsut about totally ignored that. They were trying to help you out and not let you blow your money, but you take that for "assholishness".

a much better setup than GCs and Non Adjustables...so I think that is what i am going with...then later on...other suspension components...
Saying things like this, get you flamed.

Loosen up guy, if you'll go back and re-read our posts we weren't trying to down you or anything. We're simply trying to find the reasons for your "wanted setup".

Remember, next time keep an open mind.




Oh, and dont' be a douche. :wink:

I take comments like

"you just want to do something to do it"
"Dont be a douche"

Those are Ass hole comments!

Suggestions are not ass hole comments...and I understand why people would mention spring and shock combos...but I want height adjustment...so that didnt really meet the criteria of what I was looking for...and on the subject of me being wrong...in that stament...I am relying on what companies stated as the reason behind adjusting the length of the strut or shock...if its factualy based on their stats...its not wrong

Its hard to keep an open mind...when its a flame fest full of smartass comments(which I will admit only came later in the thread...)

[CPMaverick]

I am relying on what companies stated as the reason behind adjusting the length of the strut or shock...if its factualy based on their stats...its not wrong

Show me these stats

[xamraci]

http://www.tanabe-usa.com/coilovers/r-r.asp
"Upper/Lower Adjustable Coil-Over
Fully threaded upper and lower case body allowing adjustments for proper stroke length and preload tension. "
http://www.tein.com/n1damp.html
"* Full-length adjustment system and height adjustment for separate setting of the height and spring preload. "
and Statement from Distributer of the Hayame product
"Adjustable Strut Length allows you to lower your race car WITHOUT COMPRESSING THE SHOCK or ADDING EXTRA STRESS ON THE SPRING! That means the Hayame Suspension Kit is still in OPTIMAL Performance."

as I have tried to convey earlier..I am pretty ignorant to the subject...but those all look to have simular content concerning the adjustable length of the strut/shock length. And I meant Specs, not stats...

[WiggiE]

The first two stated they have the extra adjustment so you can adjust the spring preload. Not the lack of preload.

The third, well, I wouldn't buy from them if they don't know their head from their ass. 8)

[xamraci]

haha...

Thanks wiggie :lol:

[CPMaverick]

Anyone that uses the word optimal if not related to pure theory or simulation should be killed. It's impossible to find optimal anything in the real world, everything is a compromise.

Like wiggie said, the only one of those statements that supports your theory is the last part of the last one. Compressing the shock is a valid point, like I said you might bottom out the shock if you lower to the extreme. But as far as adding extra stress on the spring I'd say that's bullshit. I can't see why that would be the case.

[Matt Harris]

Well often you won't have a 'rattling' spring at full droop, which means that you will compress the spring when you adjust it.


Charlie, the ground control setup uses Eibach ERS springs, which are quite small. On most cars I believe you will have a 'rattling spring'. But I see your point, just as you see mine.

[CPMaverick]

Yeah, just a minor point, you may be right with aftermarket setups.

[xamraci]

another question...I think I am propably(95%) sure I am going to go with GCs and Koni shocks...Does anyone think i will need adjustable shocks? Or do you think that GC can match a non adjustable with a good spring rate for my car...I know its probably hard to ask a straight question about this type of thing...I would even ask what spring rate would be better suited for my needs...but I dont know if it would be possible to get answers that suited my needs...considering its hard to gauge what someone needs based on wants...

GC with Koni Reds Or Gc With Koni Yellows...Tokico is out of the question for GCs...for some odd reason they only have shocks that wont work on my EX(all three websites I purchase from){its strange but true...}and I dunno about KYBs...they are roughly the same price as Konis....just a lil less and maybe not of the quality that Konis are...

I hate to ask so many questions...but i typically trust yalls judgement on stuff like this...or have based decisions on what I have read on the forums...

Thanks again...

[AccoRdINlySlo]

Get the Koni adjust. mang!!Both my bros has them and loves it. Don't know if this like reallie counts or relates but my g/f has the Tanabe coilovers but her shocks doesn't adjust. They ride good and all, but I think if they were adjustable, they would b a lil better. The way I see it, if ur spending that much on shocks, just add a lil more and get the adjustable ones.
I dont know how much you plan on adjusting and all but I got adj KYB's and one time I went to the track for fun and adjusting them took .2 off my times. Don't know how much of a track car its going to be but it helped me. Also at times I adjust my setup when I go on trips and I can tell a diff.

[Inspector]

This is the biggest example of the pot calling the kettle black I've ever seen.


http://www.ezthemes.com/previews/m/marijuana-jt-1.00.jpghttp://www.davidmellordesign.com/images/kettle.jpg

huh? :lol:

[grizoove]

i used to drive an ex civic with GCs and AGXs and I thought it was great. It handled well for my needs and could go from about 1 inch off the ground to a much more pratical ride height. I know have H&R OEs and AGXs and these are much less "agressive" but still work fine for my needs.

Personally I would just take your springs out all together.