APR (Split from i-VTEC) [Archive] - aSpeed Racing [ Auburn / Atlanta ]

Adam

10-03-2002, 06:14 PM

This thread has split from i-VTEC Description (http://scar.std64.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=272)

Not true at all, its very much up to the programmer/builder wether or not the engine will be a low emissions/high fuel economy car or a wild ride..
At least thats what I infered from the scc article..
The possibilities are there (well, over there in europe, as usual we get the shit end of the stick), look at what apr did with the audis...

Err... APR... I've always resepected them and admired their business but, I'm slowing moving into the "APR has brainwashed everyone" camp (I believe that was coined by Justin)...

After some thinking I really think you can convert an Audi/VW to a drive by wire (physical wire) system and then begin modifing it like a standard car. Albeit (http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=Albeit) you would probably have to reprogram some of the components simply to react to the change....

Matt Harris

10-03-2002, 06:35 PM

Err... APR... I've always resepected them and admired their business but, I'm slowing moving into the "APR has brainwashed everyone" camp (I believe that was coined by Justin)...

After some thinking I really think you can convert an Audi/VW to a drive by wire (physical wire) system and then begin modifing it like a standard car. Albeit (http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=Albeit) you would probably have to reprogram some of the components simply to react to the change....

Drive-by-wire is the terminology for a car WITHOUT a throttle cable. Much like the term fly-by-wire, it indicates computer control.

I'm not sure how APR came into this discussion, they simply have an elegant solution to a tuning issue. They have chosen to work within the system rather than around it. How does that in any way shape or form imply a brainwashing regarding tuning an Audi engine?

Oh, and Audi has had direct injection in their gasoline powered race cars for the last 2 years, and it does provide a significant performance gain as well as improved gas mileage. The system will be in all next generation Audi engines.

Adam

10-03-2002, 06:54 PM

I'm sorry for my mistaken terminology..

But, to explain the brainwashing aspect. It is: APR saying the only way you can get an Audi/VW to go fast is to bring it to us and put our equipment in it. Where as in I believe that there are ways to work around the system and get the same or possibily better performance results from it.

Now, in no way interpret this as straight up APR bashing. I highly respect APR for their immense engineering accomplishments with respect to working within the confines of the standard set-up of Audi/VW's. I simply have a growing belief that there are alternative methods to acheiving greater performance with those cars by working out-side-the-box instead of paying out-the-nose for their products (I do know that you are mostly paying for the R&D that goes into their products but, their prices are way above average when compared to trying to modify other types of cars for simliar performance increases). Dollar per gained horsepower Audi/VW's (In my own opinion) are currently stuck in an inflated state of "APR is the only way" when compared to other cars.

Matt Harris

10-03-2002, 07:23 PM

Well, personally I don't think 150HP for $4K is a bad deal, especially when you just put it in and don't have to think about it. It runs like a stock car, you don't have to fool with it, etc etc. In my opinion this is ideal for the typical Audi owner who isn't interested in screwing with a boost controller or some other aftermarket add-in. It's simply get in and drive.

Are there ways to get more power? Sure. Does APR imply otherwise? Not to the best if my knowledge. I know the guys up there far better than anyone here. Their stance is that they make kits to fill a very specific role and for a very specific type of consumer. They don't make a 400HP kit that requires constant tweaking. Do they admire the guys that do that? Yes they do. But their mission is to engineer total tuning solutions. They don't want the headache of dealing with guys blowing up their cars because the cranked the boost up to 30 PSI without the fuel to back it up.

Just because they don't produce those types of products doesn't mean they think that their way is the only way of doing things. Who have you been talking to who says otherwise?

linuxman51

10-03-2002, 07:59 PM

They've kinda got a monopoly on the audi market, that never helps prices ;)

I'm not saying that a FBW car could or couldn't be converted, but a better question would be why? The way to make a car accelerate the fastest isn't necessarily a wide open throttle.
I personally don't care much for apr, their stuff is nice enough and seems to work well, but I don't see it as the end-all be-all of audi performance. They do have the best gig going right now tho, so its hard to argue with that.

I think the idea that a computer can run the numbers based on sensor input, ambient air, how fast the potentiometer on the gas pedal is going down, what fuel octane is in the tank, etc.. can determine the best way to accelerate (by best, I'm talking about fastest.. i.e. the most bang for your low end buck)
Thats also why ems came into play to begin with... people got sick and tired of messing with carborators, and thus fledgling ems was born... it went from minimalist to fairly complex in about 15 years (along with the computer industry), With hyundai being a possible exception, most companies and people are benefitting (I say hyundai because their 1996 model elantra has the same bosch fuel injection my 1987 volvo has). Fuel economy improved, the computer(s) were able to better cope with changing weather conditions.
This new stuff is natural progression.. there are still people(ignorant ones) who will argue that the carborator(yes I know its misspelled, but I'm a product of the alabama public school system ;) ) is still the best way to go for performance.
Fly by cable is lots of fun, and easier to work on (well, maybe not easier, but probably cheaper), but the most bang for your buck still resides with the magic box..

As for how APR got involved in this, I used it as an example of a drop in computer upgrade that made immense differences in the characteristics of the applicable vehicles(I've rolled up on non-chipped a4's and jettas, and man, there isn't a whole lot there)

This is in no way a pitch for apr and their products.. they don't make anything thats applicable to me, and probably never will(I don't forsee myself owning an audi, no offense to the audi guys)

and to touch on the pricing at apr, $4k is a pretty big chunk of change for 150hp, but when you look at all the niceties that that $4k gets you, it doesn't seem like such a rip. It's not as much fun (if you're into that sorta thing) as boost controllers/afc's, etc, but there are times when I get extremely frustrated with my car and wish that it'd "just work" (of course, when you completely ventilate a mustang, that all fades into the background really fast :D )

I dunno, I fear i'm heading further and further off track, so i'll stop this post and allow someone to regroup the thread for me :D

ActiveAero

10-03-2002, 08:01 PM

APR is a tuner company that has to make money in the process. In my opinion they are well worth it. They seem to provide quality products and they back there work from what I have seen. Besides they ECU used in the Audi/VW's is pretty in depth from what I've learned and you can't just go messing around with these cars like most other turbo cars. The plus is that the ECU is apparently incredible and fully tuneable.

You are also paying for the ability to switch to stock performance with the flip of a switch (or cruise control button). The Valet programs and race gas that can all be accessed from the driver seat with minimum effort is a nice touch worth it in my opinion.

Adam

10-03-2002, 08:39 PM

I never bashed or critized APR's value as an engineering or a performance tuning company. I also understand the value of a "non-gearhead's" performance car. Yeah, it's nice and fanciful that you can flip a switch and get 50hp. The entire basis for my original argument is that I'm sure there is another way... Heck. I should start a company called PRA (Performance and Racing Audi's) and start making gear-head minded kits for Audi's. Give them all complex dash dislpays where you have an AFC and an electronic boost controller, etc.

I'd rather have a car that I can play with instead of having to bring it back to them every time I want to alter something on my car. Although, it's obviously benifical and profitable to them to have it the other way.
It's just a difference in opinions pretty much....
I can live w/ that.

Matt Harris

10-03-2002, 08:49 PM

There's an easy solution. It's called: Buy a 99 or older 1.8T

Those are the non-DBW cars, and you can pretty much do whatever you want with them. There are a handful of guys running 12's, without too much work.

I like the idea of having a car to play with as well, but not as my daily driver. I want it to work every time I get into it.

Now if I could have a 97 A4 as a second car, then sure, i'd throw a big turbo on it, aftermarket engine management, and go nuts.

WiggiE

10-03-2002, 08:55 PM

I agree, for the most part, with all the above posts.

I believe APR has good shit and does know what they are doing. But, you pay for the name as well as a "FULL" kit that has close to stock reliability and stock drivability. Most mods will kill both and they have found a true and tried way to pull the most out of a an Audi without doing major work and keeping the reliability and drivability. This is what you pay for.

But on the note of "brain washing". I believe the Audi/VW community is brainwashed into thinking APR is the ONLY way to go. I'm not saying that APR had anything do with it other than releasing better products than the competitors. I believe the Audi/VW's brainwashed themselves into thinking that.

Unfortunately, the Audi ethusiasts are less of a hardcore racer than most car ethusiasts, on average. They want their car to ride nice, be easy to drive, sound nice, and be quiet inside, while still trying to woop the shit out of a Z06. I have only heard of a handful of Audi/VW people take their cars and mess with a standalone fuel management or other turbos, that aren't the tried and true turbos. Expermenting on a car is the only way to find out the best way to make it fast.

If you want stock reliabiltiy, drivability, and not have to worry about a damn thing, then get an APR setup. It will suit you perfectly.

If you want the sickest straightline car out there, then be prepared to experiment with different combinations and spend money on custom parts. But this guy will have a lot harder time finding a way to make his car fast and reliable.

Matt Harris

10-03-2002, 09:13 PM

On the contrary, spend some time on the boards and you'll see half a dozen different tuners names thrown around. In the U.S. APR happens to be one of the top 2. I agree that they make great stuff, that's why I support them. But if you look at the market demographic of the typical A4 owner, and even enthusiast, then you're going to see a guy with a 30K car who, like Scott said, wants it to ride nice and sound quiet on the inside and yet still maintain all the fast and sporty qualities that would seem to be contrary to this. However, APR manages to do it pretty well, so no complaints from me.

A418t81

10-03-2002, 10:19 PM

Ok, I've read this with my mouth shut, but now I am jumping in.

First of all, I'd like to say.......for those who think they can build a DBW (this means stock computer, kids) big turbo A4 given twice the money of a standard stage 3 and it be faster than a standard stage 3, you'd have one HELL of a project on your hands.

Now on to the brainwashing BS.....and lets use some basic economics here since the majority of us are college students with a limited bugdet. Tell me why in the hell I would go out and "just drop in" :roll: an aftermarket EMS for "only" $1-2k when I can get a chip or "kit" from APR that is MUCH more thoroughly tuned (I.E. by people who actually know what they are doing and not by some clown w/ a dyno and an AFC) with literally dozens of hours on the dyno and the support to back up anything that may occur?

Sure, I could convert my car to n-dbw, buy an EMS, buy a big turbo, buy a manifold, fab up all required parts, and then try to "tune" the car with the aid of friends, dynos, etc. Now I have a pile of junk on my car that I spent twice the money on as a regular stage 3, drivability issues, etc, etc, etc, etc..... Nevermind the countless hours, $$, and tests that would depart while coming up with this stuff.

Or: Buy a stage 3, it work instantly, somebody else has to agonize over the code and the revisions, the car works flawlessly and doesn't spend more time down than up, etc, etc, etc......

I do not have the money, time, resources, another car,.......to make my A4 "fast". If I want to run 11's, I'll buy a damn Supra and spend a hell of alot less money getting it to run than the A4.

On a final note. In the VW/Audi aftermarket, you are NOT a tuner if you make intercoolers, exhausts, turbos, etc.....anybody can do that......you are only considered a true tuner if you can crack the Bosch code and harness the power of the stock EMS.....until then, you are just another parts supplier.

linuxman51

10-03-2002, 11:50 PM

Research research research :)
This thread is not about wether or not APR does a good job, is worth the money, hell, this thread didnt have a damn thing to do with apr, I merely used them as an example that applied to the argument I was trying to make.

Adam is apparently in disagreance with computer tuning of cars (well, at least to the extent that mitsu is going with their GDI engines), and I was merely pointing out the potentail flaws in his argument. I'm not passing judgement on anyone or anyone's car or choice of tune method, hell, the fuel injection on my ride dates back before the creation, so you know I have no room to talk about whats better than what. From a tuning stand point a fully computerized powerplant would make more power than a similar partially computer controlled, partially human controlled engine, and the reason for that is because the computer can react far faster to changing engine conditions than a person with a gameboy and a right foot. period. Sorry guys, we lose out on this one. throttle cable based cars are possibly more fun and possibly more "hands on" tunable, but think about this.. you drop $1k on a new computer for your car, hook up a laptop (or a desktop or whatever) and sit there and tune your car to your heart's desire. No more throttle cable adjustments, no more checking the TPS, no more digging around in an engine compartment checking this, that, and the other. Now its done with a keyboard from inside the car.

I personally think that thats pretty damn cool, and guess what guys... ultimatly thats what its going to be. Sure, there are still going to be aftermarket parts, bigger turbos, exhausts, etc etc, but basically, the future of tuning lies in chips, not screwdrivers.
Adam man, I'm not callin ya out, lord knows I've spent more weekends under my car and my friends cars getting filthy and playing with stuff, and I enjoy it completely. But at the same time, I don't find fault in the next generation of toys, and there's really no point in fighting it, cause thats pretty much how its going to be.

Damnit.. this wasn't supposed to be a big arguement :) I was merely pointing out a fascinating new old technology that we're probably going to be playing with in the next 5-10 years.

Adam

10-03-2002, 11:57 PM

linuxman51

10-04-2002, 12:07 AM

Sunofabitch i'm buzzin like a mofo... too many rocks in too short a time... LONG LIVE BURGER NIGHT!!! :D

Matt Harris

10-04-2002, 12:42 AM

eSpyder99

10-04-2002, 01:48 AM

If the cars of the future are going to be modified using computers and keyboards, I guess that means that Clint won't need latex gloves to work on his future car :lol: :wink: .

1 Bad 68

10-04-2002, 02:28 AM

Sunofabitch i'm buzzin like a mofo... too many rocks in too short a time... LONG LIVE BURGER NIGHT!!! :D

A Fucking Men!!! :lol:

If the cars of the future are going to be modified using computers and keyboards, I guess that means that Clint won't need latex gloves to work on his future car :lol: :wink: .

This is a very good point Jimmy! :lol:

CPMaverick

10-04-2002, 04:56 AM

I'm not against computer controlled tuning.

Hell, I'd want to design interfaces and programs to alter settings. Frankly it'd be one hell of a project and something I'd love to do if anyone has the hardware skills I have the GUI and algorithmic skills...

I'm just against the plug and play w/out being able to tune, as I said in this post.

I'd rather have a car that I can play with instead of having to bring it back to them every time I want to alter something on my car

I couldn't do a better job tuning it myself on the street than they can with hours and hours on the dyno and a strictly controlled tuning regimen. SO what's the point?

Sure it would be fun, heck it would be a blast. But that doesn't mean it would be an improvement.

If you keep the car an exact Stage III or whatever, no, it's not likely you can get much more out of the car's tuning. But the point is, if you stray from thier setup at all, you have no options. And that really sucks. I want to play with my car. Personalizing your modifications is more important to me than anything else, making my own setup work. If you can't mess with it, if you didn't create it, it means that ANYONE can do the same thing with a check or M.O.

They have great products, and I think thier strategy of not offering custom tuning is a damn good one. I would much prefer to work on the same setup for months refining it to a tee. That way the customers get a more reliable product, and you don't have to try and make a perfect 'tune' on someone's crappy setup in 2-3 hours. The problem for me is, it's an uninteresting purchase. But I'm probably in the minority.

As for equaling the Stage III's level of power an refinement for twice the money, I doubt anyone could do it with the stock ECU. But the markup is covering hours of development and tuning. Are the overpricing the kit? No. But just like anything else, do it yourself and the costs go way down. And I know I could do it with a standalone for much less. I've got no way to prove it, I just know I can. Engine's are not all that mysterious, it's just simulation, design, and trial and error. Fab a throttle body and a header and start testing.

linuxman51

10-04-2002, 02:07 PM

The arguement was never wether you could mod your car by yourself or not, but I'll run with the apr example for a little bit.. For a cool $4k, you get a hot computer, new exhaust (from the manifold back), new turbo.
Lets look at the u-do-it blue light special :D
halfway decent ems is going to cost somewhere between $1500 and $2k, and more if you want the _really_ nice stuff (haltech, tec3, etc).
New bigger better turbo: count on spending somewhere between $500 and $1000, maybe even more (obviously less if you know someone and can pull some strings, but this is for the average joe)
If your bigger better turbo has a different flange, theres another $400 for a new exhaust manifold
Now we get to the exhaust. This is probably the only place you'd really be able to cut some corners.. ghetto ass exhaust from the turbo back would probably run $200 for the fence posts and labor if you don't have your own welder, but having recently looked at someone's downpipe who did this, this is not necessarily the best way.
So, on the really low side, just for the external toys you're still looking at $3k (which, on a college budget is a huge difference, don't get me wrong) but then you've gotta make it all work, you've gotta install it, you've gotta tune the ems(yea... even the cheap cheap ems's have something like 256 rpm fuel ratio points to fine tune)
and after that you've still gotta get the boost controller, depending on which ems you get you'll need to get all new sensors, etc etc.

So yea, you could roll your own and save a little bit (because we all know projects never cost what you think they'll cost in the begining)
but you will get the ability(or burden as it'll eventually become ;) )to fine tune to your heart's desire.
so in that respect the apr setup isn't quite the ripoff you guys are making it out to be. the labor and r&d costs don't add _that_ much to the system.

So there ya go.. I personally would still go the ems roll your own route, but then, i don't own an audi and I know my car top to bottom front to back, so it wouldn't be that big of a deal for me to re-wire the whole thing and get it back up and runnin.

Matt Harris

10-04-2002, 02:33 PM

Even reputable shops have had a difficult time making an aftermarket EMS work with the DBW cars.

And as for the contents of the Stage III kit:
*Custom Spec'd Garrett GT25 ball bearing turbo
*High flow custom designed and investment cast Inconel 675 Exhaust Manifold (Audisport NA sells a similar one for $10K)
*High Flow Random Tech Cat w/custom flanges
*High Flow Injectors
*Custom Software with EMCS (The ability to change programs on the fly)
*Plus all necessary piping and tubing as well as all gaskets and miscellaneous hardware.

Still have to provide an exhaust yourself.

CPMaverick

10-04-2002, 02:43 PM

You can say 'custom' and 'high flow' all you want, WTF does it mean. Nothing. Not saying it's not a good package, but those words mean nothing!

I would not pay for my own manifold; tubing is cheap and fabrication is not hard. Exhaust manifold technology is not AS important when it comes to making power on a turbo car, who would pay 10k for one. Proper length and diameter should get you within 10% of a highly developed unit.

I'd buy a used turbo. You can try lots of used turbos and sell them for what you paid if you don't like the results.

I wouldn't run a cat, mandrel bent 3" bends aren't too expensive either, and straight tubing is dirt cheap.

No it wouldn't be easy, but it could definitely be done a lot cheaper. Most people don't want too fuck with the stuff and that's fine. But I can't be proud of a kit. I never said it was a ripoff, in fact I think it's a good deal. But if I can't tune it I don't want it.

linuxman51

10-04-2002, 03:05 PM

Custom means that its not stock ;)
High flow, well, thats self explanatory. Now high flow as compared with what is a different story.

Yes, you probably could make your own turbo manifold fairly easily and on the cheap, who said anything about a $10k manifold? (is it platinum or somethin?)
As for technology on a turbo charged car, manifold design has a direct impact on high rpm flow.. Also you can run into longevity issues with welded manifolds (but thats part of the game, my next manifold is gonna be home rolled, so I'm definitly not dissin anything :) )

Buying and selling used turbos is a crap shoot... esp. if you can't see the turbo working on a running car... The turbo that just came off of my car had very little shaft play (like almost none) but the oil seals in the cartridge were shot. Even still, buying and trying turbos is going to cost around $500, unless you're going to use a T3.

I agree on the exhaust part :)

I disagree on the kit part tho, if I shelled out $4k for something like that I'd be damn proud of it, wether or not its the best (who wants to spend that much and feel like they got taken to the house?).

If you consider your time and effort as free, then it is cheaper to roll your own, but with that comes frustration, hidden costs, etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about rolling your own stuff (I'll be doing it myself) but don't try and sugar coat it. Something like that should only be attempted by someone who's got the know-how or has the friends who do (or is dumb enough and lucky enough to have it all work :D). Thats why apr and all these other companies exist and manage to hang around.

its darwinism applied to car enthusiasts :)

Felix

10-05-2002, 10:10 PM

What is it Brock sayes in times like this... "My car is yellow."

I don't think any of you mother fuckers know what the arguement is about anymore. There are so many different topics in this thread now I wouldn't even know where to start.

Oh and BTW linuxman:

*High flow custom designed and investment cast Inconel 675 Exhaust Manifold (Audisport NA sells a similar one for $10K)

Matt Harris

10-06-2002, 12:40 AM

No arguments here...At this point i'm just adding information.

AU RSX-S

10-06-2002, 12:44 AM

This topic is getting out of hand.

Matt Harris

10-06-2002, 01:06 AM

Actually I think the fact that it has strayed so far has made for a rather interesting interchange. People are just exchanging ideas and philosophies here. Granted, most of us already know where the others stand, but it never hurts to explain our reasoning one more time.

Oh, and it's a hell of a lot more fun to read than all that crap with people bashing StrangerWithCandy or SmellsLikeCandy or whatever her name is constantly. :D

WiggiE

10-06-2002, 03:51 AM

Oh, and it's a hell of a lot more fun to read than all that crap with people bashing StrangerWithCandy or SmellsLikeCandy or whatever her name is constantly. :D

You mean SmellsLikeDooDoo :shock:

linuxman51

10-06-2002, 05:57 AM

Oh and BTW linuxman:

Quote:
*High flow custom designed and investment cast Inconel 675 Exhaust Manifold (Audisport NA sells a similar one for $10K)

Ok, fine, so someone sells one.. there's a sucker born everyday...

Just for the record, I've got a high-test crack-proof* like new turbo manifold for an na volvo that i'll let go for the low low price of $8k

As for where the argument is, there wasn't one.. If you'd read the whole exchange perhaps you would see that... I've said from the get-go that this had nothing whatsoever to do with audi, apr, etc. I merely used them as an example.
So, motherfucker, do *you* know where your argument is? :twisted:

*as long as it remains off the vehicle and out of operation

A418t81

10-06-2002, 11:09 AM

One final rant.

Notice the title on many boards. It says discussionsomwhere in the title usually. Natural human discussion slowly morphs and tagents off into interesting sub-"topics." Name the last time you sat down and chatted with friends and stayed on a sharply defined topic. It would suck ass and if anybody ever was like "oh, we are off topic" would be called ghey and asked to leave :D Yea, same thing applies here. I think it was a great thread with alot of intersting points of view and opinions. Damn the topics, those just get the ball rolling.

Although I do agree if the discussion gets completely out of hand or if people have nothing constructive to add, something should be done.